Interview with Academic Coach Margo Shine

Margo is a Nationally Certified School Psychologist, Board Certified Behavior Analyst (BCBA), Academic Coach and Educational Consultant serving adolescents and college students. During our interview Margo talks about insights on how students can improve academic outcomes as well as her own personal path through undergrad and graduate school. 

Here are our show notes with links to people, places, and things we cited.

Gonzaga University
Shine Educational Consulting
Emily Oster - An economist and world-famous parenting expert, author of three books, Expecting Better, The Family Firm, and Cribsheet, (data-driven approaches to decision-making in pregnancy and parenting), and Podcast Host of Raising Parents.
The Anxious Generation - Jonathan Haidt
Smart but Scattered - Drs. Peg Dawson and Richard Guare

https://www.youtube.com/channel/motivatecounseling
https://motivatecounseling.com/

https://motivatecounseling.com

Transcript

00:00:02.700 --> 00:00:20.119
Rob Danzman: All right. Hey, everyone! Welcome back! I have today. Margo shine. She is owner of shine educational consulting without further ado, Margo, welcome! And I'd love to hear a little bit about who you are and what you do, and we'll jump in from there.

00:00:20.460 --> 00:00:44.470
Margo Shine: Yes, Hello! Thank you for having me. This is really exciting. I'm excited to talk just about what we do, because I think it's interesting, and I hope everybody else finds it interesting. We'll see. But yeah. My name is Margo Stein, and I own educational consulting here in Bloomington, Indiana. I am a trained school psychologist and board certified behavior analyst

00:00:44.530 --> 00:01:14.350
Margo Shine: and I spend my days working with students through high school and college level. Working on what we call executive functioning skills, but working on just general academic skills and how to be a better student and to meet their educational goals. That is the bulk of what I do. But I work with families and schools to support those students and to work toward their goals as a complete system and complete team

00:01:14.420 --> 00:01:28.110
Margo Shine: and I've been doing this work now for about 3 years. I've had my own business. So before that, though I worked in the public school setting as both a school psychologist and a behavior specialist.

00:01:29.580 --> 00:01:42.919
Rob Danzman: Can you talk a little bit about your credentials? So what does behavioral analyst mean? And what does it mean to be a psychologist? And like the training and education along with both of those things.

00:01:43.230 --> 00:02:11.640
Margo Shine: Yeah, I'll start. My 1st path was in school psychology. So as a school psychologist, I went to graduate school for 3 years to get what's called an educational specialist degree. And so through those 3 years, I learned how to provide what's called psycho educational testing that looks at like students, academic levels, cognitive skills. We'd give IQ tests as they're commonly known. And...

00:02:12.024 --> 00:02:16.640
Margo Shine: my main role as a school psychologist within the public education setting

00:02:16.640 --> 00:02:30.069
Margo Shine: was to provide those evaluations to see if students qualified for special education service. And so that was the bulk of my role and to work with students, families and school themes on

00:02:30.070 --> 00:02:54.159
Margo Shine: providing that intervention. Given my results from testing. So that's basically the role of a school psychologist. They do so much more in the public education setting than just testing. Unfortunately, though, that's how the money gets made. So that is really like, why we are, we're, you know, federally mandated to be in schools and providing that testing

00:02:54.609 --> 00:03:22.019
Margo Shine: but we do interventions. We provide counseling. We provide teacher education around how to support students of varying abilities. It's really a broad role, and really depends on what state you live in and just the district you end up in as well. So I've worked in 2 different states. I worked in Washington, where I'm from and from Seattle originally.

00:03:22.070 --> 00:03:34.579
Margo Shine: and so I went to graduate school in Seattle and started my career there and then moved to Indiana in 2019 and also worked here as both a behavior specialist and school psychologist. So

00:03:35.011 --> 00:03:47.588
Margo Shine: that's the school Psychology realm. It's pretty. It can be specific to schools. But also there's a Phd level. I'm educational specialist. So I was trained to work in schools.

00:03:48.140 --> 00:03:57.209
Margo Shine: but there are many Phd school psychologists who work in the private sector as well in so many different settings. Behavioral health settings. So

00:03:57.260 --> 00:04:02.219
Margo Shine: there are a lot of us out there as well that do different different things in the psychology world.

00:04:02.863 --> 00:04:09.956
Margo Shine: And then, as a board certified behavior analyst. Honestly, it's kind of a left turn. Really, auto psychology.

00:04:10.350 --> 00:04:15.186
Margo Shine: So as a behaviorist, you are trained in how to

00:04:15.870 --> 00:04:44.170
Margo Shine: you know, employ behavioral strategies to help certain students learn new skills. Replace certain behaviors that are non adaptive and the bulk of that was 2 years, of coursework. And then a big test, big, hefty test, to become board certified and many Bcbas work in applied behavior analysis. So they work typically with with children, with autism. It's the main kind of

00:04:44.210 --> 00:05:05.120
Margo Shine: avenue that most Bcbas go down and they provide applied behavior analysis, Aba, for short, there's so many acronyms in our field insane? So I'll try to do my best to spell out what that is. They work in clinics providing behavior, analysis and services to

00:05:05.120 --> 00:05:17.319
Margo Shine: students, kids with autism. My work, though, was school specific. So I went down that route just to learn more and be able to

00:05:17.390 --> 00:05:21.990
Margo Shine: employ behavioral techniques within the school setting and with the students that I work with.

00:05:23.300 --> 00:05:25.957
Rob Danzman: How did how did you choose?

00:05:27.350 --> 00:05:36.449
Rob Danzman: How did you choose? Your undergrad, Major? Well, and what was your undergrad, major? How'd you choose that. And how did you decide to?

00:05:37.800 --> 00:05:41.050
Rob Danzman: pursue school psychology and then and then make the pivot towards education, consulting.

00:05:46.880 --> 00:05:59.370
Margo Shine: Yeah, is a windy road. So as an undergrad, I entered my freshman year. I went to Gonzaga University in Spokane, Washington, go zags.

00:05:59.870 --> 00:06:21.510
Margo Shine: I entered in as an international relations, major totally different. I have always loved languages and took Spanish and Japanese, and I traveled to Japan in high school. And so I was like, I want to do something in international relations. And then I took one college level Spanish course, and I said, never mind, this is not for me.

00:06:21.540 --> 00:06:23.692
Margo Shine: So I pivoted.

00:06:24.240 --> 00:06:26.539
Margo Shine: And taking

00:06:26.560 --> 00:06:39.449
Margo Shine: one thing I really loved about Gonzaga was that they have a really hefty core component. So the 1st 2 years really of your freshman and sophomore year are really spent

00:06:39.480 --> 00:06:55.059
Margo Shine: completing that core. And so you are required to take a variety of classes like just to kind of. I think it really helped me explore like different subjects. I had not considered psychology being one of them so I had.

00:06:55.060 --> 00:06:58.020
Rob Danzman: So it's a true Liberal Liberal Arts program.

00:06:58.020 --> 00:07:12.830
Margo Shine: Yes, yes, which there were some. I had done my international baccalaureate diploma in high school, and was a little bummed to get to college and not really like that didn't really carry me very far. Which it can with with different schools. But overall, I really appreciated the

00:07:15.910 --> 00:07:29.200
Margo Shine: that time to really explore in my 1st 2 years, because, like, I said, I entered it thinking one thing and then was quickly like, Oh, that's not gonna happen. So? Yeah. So I had taken a psych 101 course and

00:07:29.640 --> 00:07:40.149
Margo Shine: absolutely thought it was fascinating. Loved it. I really remember so vividly my professor talking about her own career path into academia and saying, really, like

00:07:40.430 --> 00:08:00.230
Margo Shine: a lot of people love psychology. And if you love it, you're gonna have to go to grad school. So really prepare yourself for that. And so I remember thinking that I was like, Okay, if I choose this, I know I'm signing up for more school. Which I love being a student. So that wasn't an issue for me. I feel like it really fit my temperament, but

00:08:00.430 --> 00:08:14.041
Margo Shine: that was definitely something that was helpful, I think, to be have upfront filled out for me. So I just kind of followed that path, I thought working with people would be really interesting. And I also,

00:08:14.480 --> 00:08:19.229
Margo Shine: found sociology really interesting. So I double majored in psychology and sociology.

00:08:19.980 --> 00:08:21.170
Margo Shine: And then.

00:08:21.654 --> 00:08:34.370
Margo Shine: that was basically my undergraduate experience. Having been to Japan. In high school, I had always known through the program I did. When I was 16. I spent a summer there.

00:08:35.450 --> 00:08:48.550
Margo Shine: I had worked with people who had been part of something called the Jet program, which is the program funded by the Japanese Government to have native English speakers come and teach English for one to 5 years

00:08:48.943 --> 00:09:04.589
Margo Shine: college graduates. So I had known that was kind of something I had had in my mind that between my undergraduate and graduate kind of school I wanted to take a gap year or gap 2 years. I wasn't sure how many

00:09:04.610 --> 00:09:32.570
Margo Shine: years it would be. It ended up being 2, but so I taught abroad for 2 years in a super rural town in Japan. And that's where the educational component came in. So I worked in schools. I was an English teacher. I worked in nursery schools with kids that were like 3 years old. All the way through elementary. And I just love the school environment I love like

00:09:32.630 --> 00:09:34.969
Margo Shine: the pace of school I loved.

00:09:35.230 --> 00:09:45.759
Margo Shine: Just yeah. I love how it was like throughout the year there were certain rhythms. We were doing certain things. And it was. It was really just a fun place to be, and I just

00:09:45.770 --> 00:10:07.569
Margo Shine: I just loved it. And I love being around kids. I've always babysat. I've been a nanny. I was a nanny in college like, I just really enjoy spending time with kids. And just I just find them hilarious and interesting. And so I think, being in a school really cemented for me like, Oh, I feel really at home here, but teaching is not my jam. So.

00:10:07.710 --> 00:10:20.029
Margo Shine: finding something adjacent, and that was part of the school system, but wasn't necessarily the routine of the classroom or didn't have the same demands of the classroom really interested me

00:10:20.120 --> 00:10:21.210
Margo Shine: so

00:10:21.550 --> 00:10:33.719
Margo Shine: honestly. Google searching, how can I do psychology in the school? Full psychologists came up. So that's basically how I started applying to programs. As a school psychologist.

00:10:34.482 --> 00:10:38.350
Margo Shine: Yep. And then I moved back to Seattle, started my grad program.

00:10:38.380 --> 00:10:39.560
Margo Shine: And

00:10:40.230 --> 00:10:42.219
Margo Shine: that basically led me

00:10:42.530 --> 00:10:43.420
Margo Shine: into

00:10:44.660 --> 00:10:46.359
Margo Shine: my job in school

00:10:46.800 --> 00:10:52.760
Margo Shine: becoming a Bcba was a left turn based on when I moved to Bloomington in 2019.

00:10:53.172 --> 00:11:00.727
Margo Shine: I look for school psychology jobs. Which is funny, because in graduate school. They promise you there are a million of them out there.

00:11:01.160 --> 00:11:16.720
Margo Shine: and in certain parts of the country. That's true. But it's not true everywhere, and iu has a great 4th program. So they have a lot of graduates that, you know, move into into jobs that local to Bloomington. So

00:11:16.880 --> 00:11:23.809
Margo Shine: I decided to pivot and apply for a behavior specialist job with just my school psychologist training.

00:11:24.185 --> 00:11:30.230
Margo Shine: Which we do have a bit of background in how to support students with behavioral challenges.

00:11:30.320 --> 00:11:33.049
Margo Shine: So I kind of got into it. But realized.

00:11:33.120 --> 00:11:39.350
Margo Shine: man, there is. My colleagues were all Bcbas. All behavior analysts.

00:11:39.810 --> 00:11:45.989
Margo Shine: And so I was like, Wow, they have a depth of knowledge. I don't and so I was really like.

00:11:46.645 --> 00:12:02.270
Margo Shine: encouraged to take further coursework and really dive into that behavioral world. Because of just watching them, and how they would design behavioral interventions. They were just like they just again had this depth of knowledge. I was like, Wow, I don't even

00:12:02.340 --> 00:12:05.829
Margo Shine: I wouldn't even know where to start on that, you know, working on that problem.

00:12:05.920 --> 00:12:13.760
Margo Shine: So that's why I started doing coursework to become a Bcba was working with students, with really severe behavioral challenges.

00:12:13.830 --> 00:12:18.439
Margo Shine: And I just found it to be a like, a really

00:12:18.938 --> 00:12:25.319
Margo Shine: interesting and really just effective way to work with those students who had the highest needs.

00:12:25.360 --> 00:12:29.380
Margo Shine: And so that's how I basically got my Vcba.

00:12:29.630 --> 00:12:36.389
Margo Shine: And honestly, the the thread line through all of that that led you to where I am now, which is not in the school system.

00:12:37.319 --> 00:12:38.240
Margo Shine: Is

00:12:38.350 --> 00:12:42.609
Margo Shine: in my work. In schools. I always felt like there was never enough time

00:12:44.010 --> 00:13:06.730
Margo Shine: never enough time to really support a student as much as they needed to give to my school team as much as they wanted or to really support parents as much as they needed. And so going through Covid, which I feel like was a transformational experience for so many people. Being home and

00:13:06.990 --> 00:13:19.270
Margo Shine: kind of pulled out of that setting. I had a lot of time to think about like what else could I do that that gave me that time, flexibility and autonomy to like, really

00:13:19.740 --> 00:13:27.900
Margo Shine: do what I feel like I'm good at, and to really support people in the way that feels good for them and supportive to them, and actually makes change.

00:13:28.398 --> 00:13:43.980
Margo Shine: And so that's where I started my own business. Llc. Was started then, and then it kind of hit the ground running, and I've kind of wiggled my way into different roles. But academic coach and educational consultant has been the best fit so far.

00:13:44.980 --> 00:13:50.389
Rob Danzman: It. My work with students I often talk about when when

00:13:50.400 --> 00:13:53.040
Rob Danzman: majors or careers come up.

00:13:53.140 --> 00:14:01.549
Rob Danzman: One of the models that I give students. I want them to aim for an intersection of ability, interest, and compensation.

00:14:01.960 --> 00:14:05.919
Rob Danzman: That's like a sweet spot of a very satisfying life

00:14:06.260 --> 00:14:15.619
Rob Danzman: in many of the life domains, and it sounds like you through kind of your path, like you got closer and closer and closer.

00:14:16.070 --> 00:14:16.420
Margo Shine: Yeah.

00:14:16.420 --> 00:14:19.499
Rob Danzman: Sounds like this entrepreneurship. I

00:14:19.570 --> 00:14:25.200
Rob Danzman: I mean, maybe I'm wrong, but like it doesn't sound like entrepreneurship like starting. Your own business was on the radar

00:14:25.240 --> 00:14:26.470
Rob Danzman: years ago.

00:14:26.990 --> 00:14:29.330
Margo Shine: No, definitely, not.

00:14:29.330 --> 00:14:34.709
Rob Danzman: Right. It was almost like a it was a. It was out of utility that it popped up.

00:14:34.820 --> 00:14:36.840
Rob Danzman: Yeah, but.

00:14:36.840 --> 00:14:50.430
Margo Shine: Absolutely, I think, to to your point. It was a lot of trial and error on my part, like in terms of like. I think many career most, if not all, careers, have pros and cons. And I think you know.

00:14:50.630 --> 00:14:51.530
Margo Shine: as

00:14:51.840 --> 00:15:08.180
Margo Shine: somebody who is growing and constantly developing that skill of self reflection and understanding, my own temperament, and what really best fit me? And what didn't I think that I developed that sense through a lot of trial and error in my own career path.

00:15:08.180 --> 00:15:22.880
Margo Shine: and I think that is important. But it's not always necessary, like, I think, if you are able to engage in that self reflection, and to talk with people who have been down those paths and really understand like, where is that intersection of like

00:15:23.253 --> 00:15:45.090
Margo Shine: what I want my life to look like, and where does career fit into that and does it best suit my passions and my temperament? And also, is it practical, you know, is it? Are there going to be opportunities out there for me to pursue that is the road going to be really hard, and am I willing to to go down that road, you know, and deal with that hardship? I think

00:15:45.090 --> 00:15:53.510
Margo Shine: those are important questions to ask yourself, and I found myself asking asking those questions at each step of the way. If that makes sense so

00:15:53.560 --> 00:16:00.939
Margo Shine: like, I said, not always necessary, but it definitely led me to where I am today, and there's no regrets in terms of a path getting there.

00:16:03.140 --> 00:16:11.720
Rob Danzman: What what skills experiences, whether they're the professional or education background you have, or some of the personal stuff, just life.

00:16:11.850 --> 00:16:19.749
Rob Danzman: What do you use with current students. And let's let's talk about interventions with

00:16:20.030 --> 00:16:21.850
Rob Danzman: and support for

00:16:21.890 --> 00:16:32.393
Rob Danzman: older adolescents, high school kids. And then the the college age kids, which I'm particularly interested in? Yeah, like, what? What skills?

00:16:32.910 --> 00:16:38.599
Rob Danzman: and interventions do you do? You kind of draw on, or or most use? Because

00:16:39.230 --> 00:16:48.240
Rob Danzman: I could imagine, like parents think of an education consultant or academic coach as like basically a glorified tutor

00:16:48.370 --> 00:16:48.940
Rob Danzman: like.

00:16:48.940 --> 00:16:49.300
Margo Shine: Sure.

00:16:49.300 --> 00:17:07.689
Rob Danzman: Down. And like, this is what we're going to study today. And that's it. Is that really just it? Or is there more that you're pulling in in terms of like, I mean, you have behavioral experience. You've got school psychology experience. And so you're, I imagine you're thinking about

00:17:08.349 --> 00:17:18.579
Rob Danzman: not just the academic side of things. But the the psychological side of things, you know, when you're sitting down with someone. So yeah, yeah, what are you drawing.

00:17:18.880 --> 00:17:23.399
Margo Shine: I find myself with every student to really

00:17:24.109 --> 00:17:51.729
Margo Shine: like, sit down and really understand, like, what are the barriers like? What are the barriers. Why, why is this person coming to me for support? And that support typically is looking like the student is struggling in school to meet their educational goals sometimes. That's grade specific. Sometimes that's really managing their workload like they've they've been throughout their high school, especially with college students. I find they've been able to kind of

00:17:52.030 --> 00:18:07.970
Margo Shine: to manage all the way through high school, and they've been told, wow! You're so bright, only you could organize things better or, man. You're so bright. Only if you could, you know, spend some more time on that assignment. I think you do even better, and they somehow manage to get through high school, and then they get to college. And they're like.

00:18:08.230 --> 00:18:30.519
Margo Shine: Wow, I'm overwhelmed like, Wow, this is way harder than I thought. The skills that you know, as I was managing all the way through high school, that's just not working for me anymore. And I'm really, I'm finding myself very overwhelmed. I'm struggling to manage my workload. I'm struggling to make the grades that I had made in high school. I'm struggling to focus and to really like

00:18:30.750 --> 00:18:40.780
Margo Shine: delineate my attention to the things like prioritize. That's where I find a lot of students are coming to me, or a lot of parents and students are coming to me, and are like

00:18:40.880 --> 00:19:08.949
Margo Shine: we don't know what to do. You know, things were managing themselves until whatever point. So I get a lot of kiddos who are coming out of middle school into high school, and I get a lot of students who are coming out of high school into college, and many, if not all, of the students I work with have a diagnosis of Adhd or something else that's comorbid. Whether that's anxiety or depression. But primarily, Adhd is the big population that I work with.

00:19:08.950 --> 00:19:25.650
Margo Shine: And so a lot of students have been masking kind of all the way up until a point where that no longer is serving them. And so we sit down and really understand, like what is impacting you the most? Is it organization like, are you struggling with

00:19:25.670 --> 00:19:41.989
Margo Shine: how to prioritize your tasks? Are you struggling to utilize tools? That work for you, and that you can use consistently? Do we need to do some exploration in that area. Have you ever used a organizational tool? You would be surprised at how many students have never.

00:19:42.160 --> 00:19:52.979
Margo Shine: you know, used a calendar or a paper planner which feels so outdated. Now, I don't have any students using those. But it's more like

00:19:53.000 --> 00:19:59.318
Margo Shine: just any organizational tool outside of what school has provided for them in terms of the school's dashboard.

00:19:59.980 --> 00:20:05.819
Margo Shine: so many students have never used anything independent of that. So just really

00:20:05.940 --> 00:20:15.269
Margo Shine: helping students understand, like, what does work with me? What does work with the way that I think and how I organize and what's going to be consistent. So

00:20:15.550 --> 00:20:39.739
Margo Shine: that's we kind of do some problem analysis. We like, understand? Like, where where, what are the barriers? Again? Sometimes it could be study skills like, have we ever learned how to study? Do we remember how you are we retaining anything we learn? Is there something going on with the way that we are practicing those skills and the repetition. And are we spacing it out enough like

00:20:39.740 --> 00:20:50.879
Margo Shine: those? There's a little psycho education that goes into teaching some study skills. Sometimes it's motivation. I would say most of the time it's motivation. So we're really understanding like.

00:20:50.980 --> 00:21:17.850
Margo Shine: what is demotivating for us like, why are we getting so you know what is causing that anxiety and overwhelm? Is there anything that we can change in terms of our habits around school and managing our school life to help boost your motivation and to help you get engaged. So those are kind of the avenues that we explore. It's very student led. It's very individualized.

00:21:18.202 --> 00:21:45.717
Margo Shine: And through that work, too. Sometimes we pull in, depending on the age of the student and their kind of connection to their family. Sometimes we pull in caregivers, and especially with high school students. I've pulled in the school team to help communicate like, what are we seeing in class. What are we seeing? As barriers there? How can we work to support the student within that environment? So it's a lot of

00:21:46.250 --> 00:21:51.290
Margo Shine: like, I said, it's very individualized, based on the student. But it really is like.

00:21:51.797 --> 00:22:01.490
Margo Shine: a a team effort. And really understanding like, how are we helping support the students, growth and skill development and the environment that they're in?

00:22:01.812 --> 00:22:20.229
Margo Shine: And what do we need to think about that environment? If anything? So that's kind of brought at a broad level my work, and then in the day to day. I really like meet with students once a week. Throughout at least a semester to work on those skills specific to whatever they're they're struggling with

00:22:20.300 --> 00:22:34.999
Margo Shine: and we will create routines within those sessions that help them build sustainable habits, and then also to help build in some accountability. And that's another piece of my work I find really important is

00:22:35.140 --> 00:22:35.995
Margo Shine: students.

00:22:36.860 --> 00:23:03.000
Margo Shine: can really struggle with, not no longer having that external accountability that they had when they lived at home with their parents. So now they're in college, and they're all on their own, and no one is dictating or providing that structure in terms of their schedule, or when they eat when they do sports like organized sports. You know their schedule is completely. I find freshmen are just overwhelmed with the time that they have. They're like.

00:23:03.490 --> 00:23:09.060
Margo Shine: I don't know how to organize my time. So kind of helping them

00:23:09.649 --> 00:23:23.639
Margo Shine: develop those skills as well. I think. Basically, we work on that in a concentrated session week to week and help them build some sustainable habits so that they can meet their goals.

00:23:24.620 --> 00:23:26.420
Rob Danzman: I'm I'm always.

00:23:26.590 --> 00:23:29.923
Rob Danzman: And yeah, I think always is fair

00:23:31.940 --> 00:23:38.990
Rob Danzman: concerned when when I hear students say I think I have Adhd, or I'm diagnosed with Adhd

00:23:40.135 --> 00:23:41.040
Rob Danzman: and

00:23:41.590 --> 00:23:47.309
Rob Danzman: and it's not because I don't believe in Adhd. I mean, it clearly is real.

00:23:47.310 --> 00:23:47.630
Margo Shine: And then.

00:23:47.630 --> 00:24:01.740
Rob Danzman: The thing that concerns me, though, and I'd love to hear your take on this. Adhd. Sometimes I mean, what the research says is, sometimes it is, there's a neurological basis to it.

00:24:02.470 --> 00:24:05.810
Rob Danzman: Other times. Adhd, symptoms

00:24:06.411 --> 00:24:10.099
Rob Danzman: are a byproduct of other stuff going on.

00:24:10.340 --> 00:24:12.890
Rob Danzman: I specifically think about

00:24:13.250 --> 00:24:16.030
Rob Danzman: someone I worked with last year.

00:24:16.120 --> 00:24:22.169
Rob Danzman: Adhd. Symptoms would have checked all the boxes if we put them in front of like testing

00:24:22.180 --> 00:24:27.368
Rob Danzman: a psychologist. And we did psych testing.

00:24:28.160 --> 00:24:36.020
Rob Danzman: The problem was the stimulants that they had been put on, which is obviously the typical medication intervention.

00:24:36.050 --> 00:24:43.020
Rob Danzman: It actually made things a lot worse, and it created anxiety that had not really been ramped up before.

00:24:43.270 --> 00:24:55.020
Rob Danzman: and we were scratching our heads. Well, we we meaning, like the other professionals that I had pulled in, realized that this person had some significant trauma that hadn't been disclosed.

00:24:55.240 --> 00:25:14.799
Rob Danzman: And so their amygdala was firing out all this norepinephrine and cortisol, and that's pretty hard to stay focused when your brain is in hypervigilant mode. And I wonder? Because I mean, there are so many kids, so many students that have either

00:25:15.090 --> 00:25:26.009
Rob Danzman: capital t trauma, like legit like this can be diagnosed or even lowercase t trauma, where it's like just a lot of bad stuff has happened. But no one's categorized it that way.

00:25:27.530 --> 00:25:30.669
Rob Danzman: Your your role is not as therapist, but.

00:25:30.670 --> 00:25:31.260
Margo Shine: Definitely, not.

00:25:31.260 --> 00:25:33.710
Rob Danzman: But I could imagine that many times like

00:25:33.920 --> 00:25:35.819
Rob Danzman: you're the 1st person

00:25:35.970 --> 00:25:39.390
Rob Danzman: that these kids have come in contact with.

00:25:39.540 --> 00:25:58.689
Rob Danzman: and the the on ramp has been through an education on ramp or academic perspective. But you might sense all this other stuff going on. I wonder how often you see something like that, like what you do with that, and and how you communicate with the students. And maybe, like you said.

00:25:58.910 --> 00:26:03.360
Rob Danzman: when we're talking about college students, they're over 18 like, do you

00:26:04.200 --> 00:26:14.089
Rob Danzman: do? You have to abide by confidentiality? Do you pull the parents in and say, Hey, like your son's kind of jacked up academically, because of this other stuff going on. How do you handle?

00:26:14.720 --> 00:26:23.559
Rob Danzman: I guess the broader question is like when when you suspect that there's a mental health or a psychological or neuropsych thing going on. How do you handle that.

00:26:24.290 --> 00:26:44.700
Margo Shine: Yeah. So I'll answer that question. And then I want to jump back to the Adhd part, because I think that's interesting to you. But in terms of how I manage like, if I am concerned about a mental health, you know mental health concern overarching like what is going on with the student and is the biggest barrier. That again you mentioned. I'm not a therapist, and I definitely am not so.

00:26:44.700 --> 00:26:55.700
Margo Shine: I always refer out to professionals that would be better suited for that. So if I have a student who I feel like I'm working with, and I'm really noticing like.

00:26:55.700 --> 00:27:00.989
Margo Shine: Hmm, you're exhibiting, like, you know, a lot of mental health stress. And I'm like noticing, like

00:27:01.060 --> 00:27:30.117
Margo Shine: I've definitely had students in the past who have had anxiety that is overarching everything, making it really is really impacting them on a day to day basis, where they are not able to even participate in the classroom, to participate, to hand anything it like really struggling with that anxiety depending on the age of the student and depending on like so I'll speak to that cadence that I'm thinking of. In particular, with a high school student. I did have conversations with their parents.

00:27:30.440 --> 00:27:35.079
Margo Shine: you know I always disclose to students that I work with. I it is my job.

00:27:35.370 --> 00:28:01.280
Margo Shine: to be a mandated reporter, so if I'm concerned about your safety or the safety of others, I will disclose that to the proper proper people, proper channels. So that's how I handle that confidentiality piece with students. And that's whether they're an adult or not, like a mandated reporter, for like, if they're going to hurt themselves or others. But in terms of like, if I'm working with a college student, that is, when I would say.

00:28:01.280 --> 00:28:27.239
Margo Shine: I'm wondering if academics and this academic coaching is not our 1st priority, like, I think maybe we need to look at other mental health habits and building, you know, some resilience and and some skills and strategies in that realm. And that is not my area. So let's find some somebody that can help you with that, and so that either I'll bring in a therapist to work in with work with us in tandem.

00:28:27.240 --> 00:28:50.829
Margo Shine: and we can continue to work toward educational goals. If that feels good for the student or for the client. And sometimes it does, and sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes the client is like, you know, I'm really not ready to focus on motivation. And I'm really not ready to kind of integrate feedback and have accountability. It's making me feel awful, and I need to deal with

00:28:51.030 --> 00:28:55.189
Margo Shine: with what else is going on first, st and that is totally I,

00:28:55.340 --> 00:28:57.360
Margo Shine: you know, totally recommend that

00:28:57.667 --> 00:29:07.370
Margo Shine: sometimes students do want to work in tandem and work on both things at the same time. Kind of depends on how I feel what will be most successful and most helpful for that client.

00:29:07.821 --> 00:29:09.580
Margo Shine: At the high school level.

00:29:10.229 --> 00:29:29.980
Margo Shine: I would bring in parents, and we would have a conversation about how? You know, I'm really concerned about your student and what they're experiencing. And I think again, maybe academic goals are not our main focus and main priority right now. Really, it's about making sure that your your child is is safe and healthy. And so

00:29:30.100 --> 00:29:38.289
Margo Shine: working with them to find the right resources to make sure that they're supporting their student in that area is basically how we'll

00:29:38.320 --> 00:29:40.720
Margo Shine: spend our time and our focus.

00:29:40.720 --> 00:29:46.760
Rob Danzman: I can imagine there are some parents, because I mean some of the parents I've worked with. They don't want to hear that

00:29:48.055 --> 00:29:48.900
Rob Danzman: like.

00:29:48.900 --> 00:29:49.870
Margo Shine: I think, yeah.

00:29:49.870 --> 00:29:56.680
Rob Danzman: Like home. Slice your job is to to get get the grades up. We don't want to hear all.

00:29:56.680 --> 00:29:57.050
Margo Shine: Yeah.

00:29:57.050 --> 00:29:59.700
Rob Danzman: Mumbo Jumbo about like anxiety and depression and stuff.

00:29:59.830 --> 00:30:10.769
Rob Danzman: Yeah, I can imagine that that's hard to either. Your spidey sense is tingling that that's the pushback you're going to get. Or they explicitly say something like, Yeah, but

00:30:10.890 --> 00:30:13.930
Rob Danzman: we still want you to focus on the academics.

00:30:14.550 --> 00:30:20.290
Margo Shine: Yeah, and I think, those are hard conversations. I think sometimes it really

00:30:20.898 --> 00:30:28.090
Margo Shine: I feel like, sometimes part of my job is psycho education around mental health and I would say.

00:30:28.090 --> 00:30:32.030
Rob Danzman: Can you explain? Can you explain what psycho education is? Real quick? I'm sorry to interrupt you. But yeah.

00:30:32.030 --> 00:30:57.630
Margo Shine: Oh, that's okay. Yeah, it's just kind of giving background to like what certain mental health disorders could look like, how they could manifest what interventions would be appropriate, and what we would really be concerned about and should focus on. So, for example, I do a lot of, I would say in my role, a lot of psychoeducation around Adhd. Because, again, that is primarily the diagnosis that I interact with the most.

00:30:57.630 --> 00:31:11.170
Margo Shine: And I also find it's there's a large gap of knowledge with with parents and families around Adhd, because it's very much in popular press, right? We hear about Adhd and increasing diagnosis rates all the time, and

00:31:11.170 --> 00:31:24.740
Margo Shine: you know it feels like everyone left, right and center is getting an Adhd diagnosis. And so I think parents have a big concern about it being over diagnosed, or is that you know

00:31:24.900 --> 00:31:39.510
Margo Shine: how, or even struggling with how to support their their student, who, like in their eyes has seemed really capable, and they've not had, you know, such great concerns until a certain point. And now.

00:31:39.903 --> 00:31:59.969
Margo Shine: Adhd, symptoms are really impacting their their child, and they're really unsure of how to approach it and how to support in a way that is helpful for their students. So I think a lot of psychoeducation we do is around, what does symptomology look like? How can it manifest what

00:32:00.040 --> 00:32:20.375
Margo Shine: the experience for their child might be? And how can we be understanding of that. How can we meet the child where they are and really understand like, live in that experience a little bit so that we can support them the best way we can. I think oftentimes when we're uncomfortable with something we have a tendency to be like. Oh, I don't know. I don't want to touch it, you know.

00:32:20.967 --> 00:32:48.292
Margo Shine: I don't know. I think you gotta deal with it kind of thing. And we just don't have that luxury as parents like with our kids, it's it's our job to really to be there for them and to support them in any way we can, and to learn, too, when it comes, when we encounter something that is uncomfortable and familiar and new. It's our job to educate ourselves about what that is and how we can really meet our child where where they're at

00:32:48.600 --> 00:33:01.239
Margo Shine: So I find a lot of times working with parents around, understanding that some of the behaviors they see. Some of the frustrations they have are really to normalize that for them, you know, like

00:33:01.280 --> 00:33:08.850
Margo Shine: some of these things that you're seeing and experiencing are really a. Sometimes they're developmentally appropriate, you know. Sometimes it's

00:33:08.900 --> 00:33:18.419
Margo Shine: this is what having a teenager can be. And sometimes this is what having a teenager who has Adhd symptoms can be, and so helping them kind of

00:33:18.620 --> 00:33:27.799
Margo Shine: understand that and normalize that for them, I think, can be empowering and help them move forward with their child in a diff in a different way and kind of at a new level.

00:33:27.850 --> 00:33:30.179
Margo Shine: So that's psychoeducation in a nutshell.

00:33:30.180 --> 00:33:35.055
Rob Danzman: I like it, and something that just struck me as as you were talking about that.

00:33:36.780 --> 00:33:46.190
Rob Danzman: I think there are lots of people in in education, whether it's like in academia or in educational consulting or academic coaching that don't have

00:33:46.440 --> 00:33:54.860
Rob Danzman: the the mental health background, the psychological background. And it strikes me that it's so essential because

00:33:55.870 --> 00:34:06.829
Rob Danzman: learning is not just, it's not siloed. It's not just this kind of like this silo where information goes in, it gets processed and then gets put in the right file.

00:34:06.870 --> 00:34:14.550
Rob Danzman: there's always a psychological component to it and neurological component. And so having that background with

00:34:14.630 --> 00:34:21.185
Rob Danzman: psychology and behavioral analysis just is so helpful. I could imagine, you know,

00:34:21.699 --> 00:34:22.939
Margo Shine: Oh, yeah, I think so.

00:34:22.940 --> 00:34:29.520
Rob Danzman: Even if you're not using, even if you're not wearing the hat of a psychologist. In that moment.

00:34:29.909 --> 00:34:32.429
Rob Danzman: looking through the lens of

00:34:32.874 --> 00:34:39.069
Rob Danzman: mental health and psychology like, Okay, what am I seeing? And what's the function to this behavior? And.

00:34:39.070 --> 00:34:39.540
Margo Shine: Yeah.

00:34:39.540 --> 00:34:43.670
Rob Danzman: That seems it seems like almost maybe, part of your secret sauce.

00:34:43.670 --> 00:34:53.960
Margo Shine: Maybe. Yeah, I think it's so helpful in terms of really understanding a problem at a deeper level and providing, I think

00:34:55.310 --> 00:35:13.209
Margo Shine: kind of a nuance like approach. You know, I don't think there's any one solution to one problem. I think it's not a plus B equals. C. People are much more complicated than that. And I think developing adolescents are especially more complicated than that.

00:35:13.210 --> 00:35:37.329
Margo Shine: And so I think that there are multiple ways to approach a presenting problem. And so really understanding how all these things, like a student's environment, their history, their past traumas, their family dynamics, their educational history, their understanding of themselves, like all of those things, come together to combine

00:35:37.330 --> 00:35:50.809
Margo Shine: what this student's life is, and to ignore all of that, I think, is to do a disservice to them and to their family. In terms of moving toward educational goals. If that is the priority for them. Like you mentioned earlier. You asked if, like

00:35:51.128 --> 00:36:11.840
Margo Shine: in terms of if I'm a tutor, or like I get that a lot right with parents being like, alright. So are you gonna tutor, get in this specific subject, and I would just want to be clear that what we, the work that we do is much more in depth, and also like not content. Specific. I am not you know.

00:36:11.840 --> 00:36:30.821
Margo Shine: a math with I am not a history buff like I am not somebody who can sit with your kid and and work at a content level like you said just kind of presenting information for them to retain and then to kind of move forward with. It's really an in depth

00:36:31.210 --> 00:36:35.789
Margo Shine: kind of process in which we're coaching and working with the student to

00:36:35.830 --> 00:37:01.680
Margo Shine: self actualize. I mean, that's really what we're asking to like adolescents. To do, especially in the college years, is to to become, you know, self actualized and effective in their own lives. And I feel like that's the job of coaching is to help support that process. And that process is complicated and full of full of barriers and things to work through. And yeah.

00:37:03.960 --> 00:37:08.320
Rob Danzman: What changes have you noticed? I'm getting back to some of my questions here.

00:37:08.320 --> 00:37:09.240
Margo Shine: Yeah, sure.

00:37:09.240 --> 00:37:13.539
Rob Danzman: Because I keep deviating. What changes have you noticed

00:37:13.550 --> 00:37:15.560
Rob Danzman: over the years? And

00:37:17.030 --> 00:37:31.790
Rob Danzman: it might be the last 3 years, but specifically around, like older adolescents, young adult like, have you noticed like you commented on? You know, increased rates of Adhd, are you noticing like

00:37:32.120 --> 00:37:53.339
Rob Danzman: more academic problems are, and it doesn't just have to be within the individual. It could also be at the systematic level. Are you noticing, like less communication with the University staff faculty? Are parents slightly different than they used to be a few years ago. What are you seeing.

00:37:54.373 --> 00:38:04.209
Margo Shine: Yeah, in terms of in terms of trends. I you know I was thinking about this question, and I I think it's important to

00:38:04.500 --> 00:38:11.590
Margo Shine: to acknowledge. I've been in the field of education as a professional for 10 years. The last 3 being a coach.

00:38:11.720 --> 00:38:23.219
Margo Shine: and I think over that time. I have noticed few things that I am kind of concerned about in terms of changing trends. The 1st is.

00:38:23.250 --> 00:38:29.999
Margo Shine: I think I've noticed parents being extremely involved in the academic lives of their children.

00:38:30.760 --> 00:38:47.330
Margo Shine: to, I mean, I I think, and that has shifted, I think over the last. I would say generation, maybe more than a decade. But I've really seen that ramp up, especially with college students, and high school high school to college students. I feel. There is a

00:38:47.767 --> 00:38:50.619
Margo Shine: anxiety that I deal with with parents

00:38:51.162 --> 00:38:59.759
Margo Shine: in terms of their worry of their children's academic success and future prospects, and I think that has really

00:38:59.830 --> 00:39:13.140
Margo Shine: been a result of the changing kind of landscape of just our society and country and things that are just this worry of kind of scarcity in terms of what is my kid, you know, if they don't

00:39:13.540 --> 00:39:19.499
Margo Shine: graduate high school, go to college, get a 4 year degree, go to grad school. Get a graduate degree.

00:39:19.768 --> 00:39:24.241
Margo Shine: They're not gonna have a job, and they're gonna live at my house until they're 25 plus.

00:39:24.540 --> 00:39:33.845
Margo Shine: And that's the reality for a lot of people. And also, I think, a huge anxiety that parents have, and it's resulting in, I think, a huge

00:39:34.400 --> 00:39:38.830
Margo Shine: need to intervene and to kind of

00:39:38.870 --> 00:39:46.989
Margo Shine: advocate on behalf of their student in a way that I've not seen previously. I think the level of involvement

00:39:47.190 --> 00:40:11.279
Margo Shine: kind of goes up to a point where parents are turning in their students homework. They're driving to school to hand in that, you know. Forgotten piece of paper. They're emailing teachers consistently daily about their students. You know, progress and wanting great updates. I think even the proliferation of technology is wonderful thing. But one thing that has really changed.

00:40:11.280 --> 00:40:18.910
Margo Shine: I think, is access to like updated information on grades and progress and performance.

00:40:19.333 --> 00:40:23.810
Margo Shine: Parents in real time have an app. They can click and say, Oh, my kid got a

00:40:23.830 --> 00:40:32.890
Margo Shine: got you know. Less got to see on this assignment today in Bio. They can see in real time because it's rated. Everything is electronic now. So it's

00:40:33.030 --> 00:40:51.119
Margo Shine: such immediate, real time feedback that I think has led led parents to be anxious about those daily updates, you know there and then that I think transfers to their kiddos. And I think, too, has made it difficult for students to

00:40:51.150 --> 00:40:59.091
Margo Shine: be autonomous in their own school life, you know, to advocate for themselves with teachers and with administrators. Even, you know.

00:40:59.810 --> 00:41:12.850
Margo Shine: I've had parents ask me to email advisors on behalf of their students. It's you know, it's like, no, we're gonna work with your kiddo to learn how to do that, because we want them to be able to to advocate for themselves. So

00:41:13.010 --> 00:41:32.519
Margo Shine: that has been a huge trend that I've seen and I I want to be fair to parents. I think we're all doing our best out here, you know, it's a changing, rapidly changing landscape. That our kids are going into. And it's really different than what we experienced. I think technology and where we're at, it's so it's so different.

00:41:32.540 --> 00:41:48.060
Margo Shine: And I think it's scary for a lot of us. So I want to be fair to that anxiety felt. But I also just want to encourage parents to let their kiddo struggle a little, and and so, and to be, you know, to fly free a bit.

00:41:48.220 --> 00:41:50.119
Rob Danzman: I think also

00:41:50.420 --> 00:41:52.090
Rob Danzman: to piggyback on that.

00:41:53.052 --> 00:41:59.949
Rob Danzman: I think there's a generation of parents that have unaddressed issues of their own

00:42:00.280 --> 00:42:06.259
Rob Danzman: that that manifest. And I don't think everyone has mommy and daddy issues. But.

00:42:06.790 --> 00:42:09.769
Rob Danzman: man, it's amazing how

00:42:09.860 --> 00:42:12.209
Rob Danzman: college students seem to kind of.

00:42:12.960 --> 00:42:15.250
Rob Danzman: They don't even realize how

00:42:15.850 --> 00:42:17.840
Rob Danzman: they're being parented

00:42:18.390 --> 00:42:24.269
Rob Danzman: as defined by stuff that Mom and Dad are bringing into that

00:42:24.570 --> 00:42:26.460
Rob Danzman: parent-child relationship.

00:42:29.080 --> 00:42:36.349
Rob Danzman: and there's a power differential. So it seems like, well, this is just the way it is like that's, you know, parents. And then

00:42:36.590 --> 00:42:45.280
Rob Danzman: college student. And you know they're shooting on me. They're telling me what I should be doing, and they know better than I do.

00:42:46.460 --> 00:42:58.269
Rob Danzman: and I think a lot of the time those parents like might have some stuff going on unaddressed. Lots of like substance use stuff that I see in parents. Lots of substance use almost to the point where

00:42:58.910 --> 00:43:04.700
Rob Danzman: more and more students, I think, are drinking less than their parents.

00:43:05.420 --> 00:43:07.409
Margo Shine: Yeah, that's been a trend with, yeah.

00:43:07.410 --> 00:43:07.830
Rob Danzman: Many.

00:43:07.830 --> 00:43:08.410
Margo Shine: Generation.

00:43:08.790 --> 00:43:11.080
Margo Shine: Yeah, yeah, it's interesting.

00:43:11.080 --> 00:43:12.730
Rob Danzman: I also. Oh, I'm sorry. Go ahead.

00:43:13.040 --> 00:43:15.839
Margo Shine: No, I was just gonna piggyback off, I think.

00:43:16.570 --> 00:43:19.740
Margo Shine: parents bringing in their own.

00:43:19.860 --> 00:43:35.540
Margo Shine: I want to say expectation, I think, without knowingly doing so sometimes. They're either, whether they're whether they're trying to encourage their child to model from them or to people they look up to, or to like whatever ideal that it is. I,

00:43:35.590 --> 00:43:44.869
Margo Shine: you know, for any parent listening, it's like, even if you're adolescent, seems to shrug it off to seem like they don't care to seem like they're even pushing back against it.

00:43:45.344 --> 00:43:54.020
Margo Shine: They really care what you think. They really like to the deepest, deepest level, really care what you think, and it affects

00:43:54.220 --> 00:44:23.480
Margo Shine: so many aspects of their I would say college life, their high school and college career and trajectories. And I think that is something that I think parents don't realize. A lot of the time is that there should. You should do this, you should do that. They think it gets pressed off, or they think that their kid is just not listening, or, you know, falling through. And I think that really creates a lot of discord and frustration with parents and children and their dynamic. And I just wish parents could

00:44:23.790 --> 00:44:30.980
Margo Shine: could hear that their kids really care. And they tell other people, you know not the parent, that they really care what their parents think.

00:44:31.190 --> 00:44:37.010
Rob Danzman: I often tell parents sometimes they'll ask, you know, when does it get better.

00:44:37.010 --> 00:44:38.290
Margo Shine: Yes, I get that a lot, too.

00:44:38.290 --> 00:44:43.530
Rob Danzman: And what I tell them is like, oh, you're gonna get a phone call when your kiddo's in their thirties.

00:44:43.790 --> 00:44:47.630
Rob Danzman: you're gonna get a phone call, and it's gonna be a non sequitur. It's gonna be out of nowhere.

00:44:48.020 --> 00:45:00.950
Rob Danzman: They're gonna say, Mom, dad, like I was a shit. I am so sorry. And what I tell parents like, you know, we are our brains. And we are going through these developmental stages.

00:45:01.040 --> 00:45:02.540
Rob Danzman: And again.

00:45:02.590 --> 00:45:14.630
Rob Danzman: these kids look like adults. They smell like adults. They, you know, they sound like adults, but they don't allow information in, because there is a power struggle going on. And

00:45:14.870 --> 00:45:16.689
Rob Danzman: it they don't even.

00:45:16.830 --> 00:45:18.460
Rob Danzman: It's not intentional.

00:45:18.860 --> 00:45:31.220
Rob Danzman: And it's very difficult for students to give their parents, you know gratitude and acknowledgement that like oh, maybe you know what you're talking about because you've been on the earth longer than me.

00:45:31.610 --> 00:45:33.809
Margo Shine: Oh, my gosh! So many parents just want to hear that.

00:45:34.010 --> 00:45:34.400
Rob Danzman: Yeah.

00:45:34.400 --> 00:45:40.560
Margo Shine: How many, how many of the parents just want to be like? I just want to hear that my kid hears me, you know.

00:45:40.560 --> 00:45:43.979
Rob Danzman: But, Margo, the funny thing is, when when we ask parents like.

00:45:44.510 --> 00:45:47.309
Rob Danzman: when did you say? Sorry to your parents?

00:45:48.470 --> 00:45:50.639
Rob Danzman: Every single parent? I asked. They were like.

00:45:50.940 --> 00:45:53.669
Rob Danzman: Oh, oh, yeah, yeah.

00:45:53.670 --> 00:45:55.900
Margo Shine: We're working on that. Actually, yeah.

00:45:55.900 --> 00:46:04.839
Rob Danzman: So you're right like I. I was a Turd to my parents, and then when I turned 30, I started realizing like.

00:46:04.910 --> 00:46:08.249
Rob Danzman: oh, I was not the nicest person to those people.

00:46:08.550 --> 00:46:26.589
Margo Shine: Yeah, I think it's developmental. I think I talk about that all the time, having developmentally appropriate expectations for your child, because I think it's a really challenging time in development. But it's that self actualizing, like, you know, developing my own path, and

00:46:26.660 --> 00:46:35.169
Margo Shine: just the anxiety of letting that go unfettered and without intervention on the part of the parent, I think, is really hard to cope with.

00:46:35.510 --> 00:46:36.719
Rob Danzman: Frightening. It's.

00:46:36.720 --> 00:46:37.060
Margo Shine: Yeah.

00:46:37.060 --> 00:46:49.850
Rob Danzman: To let control go. There's a fantastic book by Nassim Taleb, called Anti-fragile, that I reference, and he writes about macroeconomic systems.

00:46:50.330 --> 00:47:01.780
Rob Danzman: but I've pulled a lot of that into family systems and individuals. You know the the individual and the goal is not to build a resilient kid.

00:47:01.910 --> 00:47:23.789
Rob Danzman: It's to build an anti-fragile kid. A resilient kid is a brick wall, whereas an anti-fragile kid is a tree that gets stronger through adversity storms and wind and snow. That's a stronger person that's out in the world. And parents are insulating their kids from all of those variables. Which means that they're not gaining strength.

00:47:23.890 --> 00:47:40.030
Rob Danzman: They're they're basically stuck, and then we expect them to go into the workforce and have adaptability and be able to make friends and play nicely with others and do a good job, and they just do not have the skills for that. So.

00:47:40.030 --> 00:47:41.550
Margo Shine: Totally. Yeah.

00:47:41.550 --> 00:47:52.910
Rob Danzman: Margo. I want to move away from parents, and I'm interested to get your thoughts on like kind of institutional level. We talked about like. Oh, what you wish like kind of parents knew, and stuff like that!

00:47:53.890 --> 00:47:57.240
Rob Danzman: What? What do you wish like mental health providers

00:47:57.860 --> 00:48:09.020
Rob Danzman: knew or did differently, and universities and kind of some of the the professional side of kind of academia and mental health, since since you're kind of in this

00:48:09.440 --> 00:48:12.210
Rob Danzman: crossroads, so to speak, in many ways.

00:48:12.623 --> 00:48:17.589
Margo Shine: Yeah, I'm definitely ancillary person. And all of these kind of systems.

00:48:18.123 --> 00:48:30.310
Margo Shine: yeah, I would say to those, I will speak probably probably to education professionals, because I think that can include therapists that include academic advisors that can include anyone professors, teachers.

00:48:30.860 --> 00:48:34.380
Margo Shine: I I would wish that they had a

00:48:34.942 --> 00:48:44.790
Margo Shine: understanding of development and developmentally appropriate expectations for their students. I think what I find sometimes in working with

00:48:44.940 --> 00:48:58.489
Margo Shine: students is that there is a real mismatch between the expectations that we hold of them at certain ages, like we say, Okay, you're in college, you're 18. You are now fully independent and

00:48:58.490 --> 00:49:22.559
Margo Shine: expect no support, you know, like this is now your job, and I think, while I understand where that comes from, I think that's historically been 18. As a marker of adulthood. I don't think that matches with development, and where students are finding themselves especially now, you know, as we said, having maybe fewer and fewer experiences

00:49:22.560 --> 00:49:48.459
Margo Shine: of adversity and navigating. You know the world on their own. Really, when they turn 18 and go to college is the 1st time, and I see college as as a training ground like this is where we're practicing those skills. This is where we're taking some risks. This is where we're failing a bit, you know, and then figuring out, well, that didn't work. Where can I pivot next? And that's, I think, a great time developmentally to

00:49:48.460 --> 00:50:10.689
Margo Shine: to work on building flexibility, and unfortunately, I think sometimes our expectations at that level feel so high stakes and so rigid that students have an overwhelming anxiety to try and then fail. And so I really wish that there was a better understanding of where

00:50:10.930 --> 00:50:35.790
Margo Shine: students are developmentally, and to provide that kind of trial and error built in, so that things you know they are high stakes. Getting a college degree is high stakes, but there is flexibility within that to explore and to figure out like what really is fitting of your temperament and your strengths, and and what you are not good at, you know. I think there needs to be more conversation around that, and

00:50:35.790 --> 00:50:42.729
Margo Shine: more grace, maybe around making mistakes, doing things that are very impulsive, like

00:50:43.319 --> 00:50:46.219
Margo Shine: and and also practicing like

00:50:46.460 --> 00:50:47.780
Margo Shine: having

00:50:48.000 --> 00:51:09.639
Margo Shine: students come into contact with natural consequences. So just having college be this place where we're learning how to be adults instead of expecting them to already be fully formed. That would be my wish. And I think to in that process, really focusing on relationships with students and rapport building, I think

00:51:09.750 --> 00:51:11.850
Margo Shine: one thing I have

00:51:12.274 --> 00:51:29.980
Margo Shine: come to find out in terms of when working with college students is sometimes I am the only adult that they see regularly that they have lengthy conversations with about where they're at in their life and what's going on. They are not yet connected with somebody at the University

00:51:30.230 --> 00:51:48.669
Margo Shine: where they can, where they have that relationship with and I think you know, academic advisors could be that role or there could be a professor that would fill that role. And I think students find that eventually, but just having that be a concerted effort at the outset, so that students are connected

00:51:48.760 --> 00:51:52.839
Margo Shine: to their you know. Institution, I think, would be really

00:51:52.930 --> 00:51:54.170
Margo Shine: helpful, just.

00:51:54.170 --> 00:51:57.990
Rob Danzman: That is such a good point. That's such a good point. I had not thought about that before that

00:51:58.060 --> 00:52:01.126
Rob Danzman: the the adult touch point

00:52:01.900 --> 00:52:05.060
Rob Danzman: for so many students.

00:52:07.000 --> 00:52:09.580
Rob Danzman: Yeah. So

00:52:11.680 --> 00:52:23.930
Rob Danzman: I wonder like, do you think that orientation should be more robust? Do you think that kind of the the beginning, like freshman year should look different. And also along with that.

00:52:24.360 --> 00:52:37.250
Rob Danzman: when's the when's the sweet spot for choosing a major, do you think? Because what you're talking about is a lot of exploration, a lot of like sandbox activity I can imagine, like parents, but also universities. They're like.

00:52:37.330 --> 00:52:39.819
Rob Danzman: let's let's move this along like.

00:52:39.820 --> 00:52:40.820
Margo Shine: Totally. Like, yeah.

00:52:40.820 --> 00:52:45.870
Rob Danzman: Want to be a journalism, major. Okay, probably not going to be employed. But at least you'll graduate, you know. So.

00:52:45.870 --> 00:52:46.670
Margo Shine: Right.

00:52:46.770 --> 00:53:05.159
Margo Shine: I think that speaks to like what is everybody's motivation and long term goal. Right? So universities want you to graduate. That's great. I think that's a great goal. I think students may. They want to graduate, but they also want to graduate with something that is practical and going to work toward their longer term goals, even post.

00:53:05.160 --> 00:53:18.439
Margo Shine: You know college. So I think just kind of understanding where everybody is oriented and operating with like, what are we prioritizing based on your long term goals. So for students, I would say,

00:53:18.830 --> 00:53:30.716
Margo Shine: having that freshman year to explore and really like sandboxes, you put it would be great. And by the end of freshman year, really narrowing your focus? So that especially

00:53:31.160 --> 00:53:54.439
Margo Shine: and non liberal colleges, where it's a little bit more like you kind of. You need to decide. I think, having a narrower focus. That at the end of your 1st year is a is a good place to land and a good goal to have.

00:53:54.720 --> 00:54:17.730
Margo Shine: I really think it's about going through that process with a long term goal in mind that you are narrowing your focus and having done a lot of self reflection and a lot of also reaching out to mentors, reaching out to people in the field like exploring different opportunities, what they look like.

00:54:18.133 --> 00:54:20.316
Margo Shine: Doing the bulk of that work

00:54:20.810 --> 00:54:29.639
Margo Shine: conscientiously in that 1st year to year and a half, I think, is where I would want to land in terms of narrowing your focus.

00:54:30.100 --> 00:54:58.329
Margo Shine: And then your other question about orientation and those kind of supports built in. I don't want to speak too much on that, because I've never worked within higher education. So I can't comment on like the kind of nuts and bolts of how things are organized. I just think, broadly speaking, having more positive adults in adolescents lives is a good thing. Having positive role models and people that they can call mentors, I think, is a good thing. So

00:54:58.330 --> 00:55:21.119
Margo Shine: any way that we can increase the opportunities for that to draw students out of kind of this isolation that I think so marks that freshman year. I think would be a really positive effort. So I you know, I work mostly with college freshmen, because I think they're coming into college, and they're like Whoa! Expectations are different.

00:55:21.120 --> 00:55:44.649
Margo Shine: I'm alone, I, you know, like, and there is an intense period of isolation while they are figuring out what their new social groups look like. I think that's why Greek life is so popular, you know. It's like kind of a built in foundation in that way. But they're figuring out social circles. They're figuring out academic expectations, and they're trying to decide what they want to do for the next 3 and a half years. So

00:55:44.660 --> 00:55:53.799
Margo Shine: I think that's a lot of pressure to develop rapidly in isolation. And so anything we could do to support that process

00:55:54.215 --> 00:55:57.050
Margo Shine: with positive adult interaction, I think, is a win.

00:56:00.360 --> 00:56:02.080
Rob Danzman: We gotta wrap up soon. I've.

00:56:02.080 --> 00:56:02.700
Margo Shine: Okay. Thanks.

00:56:02.700 --> 00:56:22.780
Rob Danzman: For so long, and I really appreciate it. I would love to hear what what you're consuming, what you're reading blog posts, books, Youtube, what are you taking in right now? And professionally, personally, yeah, what's interesting? You.

00:56:23.120 --> 00:56:36.910
Margo Shine: Yeah. So I'm a parent of a 1 year old baby girl. And so I actually spend most of my days with her primarily, and I work very part time at this moment in our lives. Which

00:56:36.980 --> 00:56:52.969
Margo Shine: to hark back to our like. How do you want your job to look flexible, and economists were important to me for that reason. So yeah, I'm lucky enough to spend a lot of my time with her, and as a result, consume a lot of parenting content and podcasts.

00:56:52.970 --> 00:57:11.470
Margo Shine: So I am really loving. I love Emily, oster, I love anything that she does. He's an economist that talks on parenting topics and really just collates a ton of data to answer common parenting kind of questions. He started in pregnancy, and then has kind of expanded.

00:57:11.889 --> 00:57:28.239
Margo Shine: Her, it's called parent data is her kind of platform. And she just released a new podcast called raising parents and it kind of talks to it speaks to current parenting topics and concerns. And it's just really

00:57:28.290 --> 00:57:43.970
Margo Shine: done very well. In my opinion. She grabs, you know, experts from differing viewpoints to kind of talk on the same topic. And I just think it's really interesting and fascinating. So I'm listening to that routinely every week at least.

00:57:44.030 --> 00:57:50.213
Margo Shine: And I also just started a book called The Anxious Generation by Jonathan Haidt. It's

00:57:50.640 --> 00:57:57.359
Margo Shine: about kind of the role of social media and smartphone use. I find that really compelling. And I would recommend that to parents.

00:57:57.550 --> 00:58:08.129
Margo Shine: And one text that I always use for clients and parents of clients that I work with is called smart, but scattered. I have it here. It's

00:58:08.140 --> 00:58:38.129
Margo Shine: this is my smart but scattered teens. There's also a child version for younger kiddos. By Peg Dawson and Richard. And it's just a really like brass pack, you know. Here are some strategies you can start working with your kiddo at home to help work through some common struggles you might be having with your teenager at home. So I yeah, I highly recommend that book as well.

00:58:38.580 --> 00:58:50.189
Rob Danzman: Great I will post all of that information. Any resource that we've talked about in the show notes and make sure that people can easily

00:58:50.440 --> 00:58:52.262
Rob Danzman: find that stuff.

00:58:53.870 --> 00:58:59.420
Rob Danzman: how can people reach you? Do you want people to reach you? Yeah, you got a 1 year old running.

00:58:59.420 --> 00:59:15.699
Margo Shine: Yeah. Yeah. Yes, I do. I am looking to work with some college students in the next in the spring. So if people are interested in working with me. I'm open to that. And you can find me at my website. It's consulting.com

00:59:15.990 --> 00:59:29.660
Margo Shine: and you can contact me there. You can also just Google my name. And that will come up. Margot shine. And yeah, there's contact form there. It talks a little bit about what I do and how to reach me. So that's where to find me.

00:59:29.810 --> 00:59:33.010
Rob Danzman: Perfect. I will also post all that information.

00:59:33.910 --> 00:59:36.579
Rob Danzman: wherever this lands.

00:59:36.770 --> 00:59:38.289
Margo Shine: Great you you, too, thank you.

00:59:38.290 --> 00:59:38.870
Rob Danzman: And

00:59:39.120 --> 00:59:40.200
Rob Danzman: blog, and all that.

00:59:40.200 --> 00:59:41.320
Margo Shine: Sounds, great.

00:59:41.320 --> 00:59:49.240
Rob Danzman: Margo. Thank you so much for talking with me today, and all the great information and good luck with the one year old.

00:59:49.240 --> 00:59:51.969
Margo Shine: Thank you so much. I appreciate it.

00:59:52.070 --> 00:59:53.230
Margo Shine: Thank you.